Comments on: A War of Definition, Part 2: Justice, or Vengeance? http://www.randomfate.net/MT/2006/04/04/a-war-of-definition-part-2-justice-or-vengeance/ One more roll of the dice... Thu, 08 Jan 2009 01:17:16 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: Eric http://www.randomfate.net/MT/2006/04/04/a-war-of-definition-part-2-justice-or-vengeance/comment-page-1/#comment-9351 Eric Wed, 12 Apr 2006 22:00:36 +0000 http://www.randomfate.net/MT/2006/04/04/a-war-of-definition-part-2-justice-or-vengeance/#comment-9351 ... wow.. I thought you only sent the email to me personally... I see you posted it here too... ... you're just full of surprises, aren't you?... ... so long, Jack... … wow.. I thought you only sent the email to me personally… I see you posted it here too…

… you’re just full of surprises, aren’t you?…

… so long, Jack…

]]> By: Jack Grant http://www.randomfate.net/MT/2006/04/04/a-war-of-definition-part-2-justice-or-vengeance/comment-page-1/#comment-9333 Jack Grant Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:26:02 +0000 http://www.randomfate.net/MT/2006/04/04/a-war-of-definition-part-2-justice-or-vengeance/#comment-9333 Eric, Do you really want to discuss this, or are you just throwing out an objection saying "we abuse our people in boot camp, so we can abuse anyone in our power"? Did your abuse include "waterboarding"? Did you ever have any <em>real</em> doubt that you would make it through boot camp alive? Did you ever wonder if they were deliberately trying to injure or kill you to achieve some goal inimical to your family? Were you there involuntarily? These are ALL questions that show the contrast between VOLUNTARILY going to boot camp to join an organization that uses emotional and physical stress to create a cohesive whole out of a disparate group of individualists versus a government either deliberately or through incompetence mistreating prisoners being held against their will. If you cannot see that difference, you are not interested in a discussion, nor in truly thinking about the issue. You want to remain in your comfort box that we are always, always "the good guys" no matter how badly we behave. Eric, Do you really want to discuss this, or are you just throwing out an objection saying “we abuse our people in boot camp, so we can abuse anyone in our power”?

Did your abuse include “waterboarding”? Did you ever have any real doubt that you would make it through boot camp alive? Did you ever wonder if they were deliberately trying to injure or kill you to achieve some goal inimical to your family? Were you there involuntarily?

These are ALL questions that show the contrast between VOLUNTARILY going to boot camp to join an organization that uses emotional and physical stress to create a cohesive whole out of a disparate group of individualists versus a government either deliberately or through incompetence mistreating prisoners being held against their will.

If you cannot see that difference, you are not interested in a discussion, nor in truly thinking about the issue. You want to remain in your comfort box that we are always, always “the good guys” no matter how badly we behave.

]]> By: Eric http://www.randomfate.net/MT/2006/04/04/a-war-of-definition-part-2-justice-or-vengeance/comment-page-1/#comment-9319 Eric Wed, 12 Apr 2006 11:54:07 +0000 http://www.randomfate.net/MT/2006/04/04/a-war-of-definition-part-2-justice-or-vengeance/#comment-9319 .. shit, Jack.. I was "tortured" all through basic training, the School of Infantry, Crypto School, and once I was in the fleet according to Abu Ghraib standards... where's my support group?.. .. shit, Jack.. I was “tortured” all through basic training, the School of Infantry, Crypto School, and once I was in the fleet according to Abu Ghraib standards… where’s my support group?..

]]> By: kreiz http://www.randomfate.net/MT/2006/04/04/a-war-of-definition-part-2-justice-or-vengeance/comment-page-1/#comment-9040 kreiz Fri, 07 Apr 2006 17:55:04 +0000 http://www.randomfate.net/MT/2006/04/04/a-war-of-definition-part-2-justice-or-vengeance/#comment-9040 For a counterpoint and an entirely different perspective, visit American Digest, "On the Return of History". We no longer have the luxury of avoiding history. americandigest.org/mt-archives/006236.php For a counterpoint and an entirely different perspective, visit American Digest, “On the Return of History”. We no longer have the luxury of avoiding history.
americandigest.org/mt-archives/006236.php

]]> By: probligo http://www.randomfate.net/MT/2006/04/04/a-war-of-definition-part-2-justice-or-vengeance/comment-page-1/#comment-8985 probligo Thu, 06 Apr 2006 00:49:45 +0000 http://www.randomfate.net/MT/2006/04/04/a-war-of-definition-part-2-justice-or-vengeance/#comment-8985 "President George W. Bush repeatedly says that he wants to “bring the terrorists to justice,??? yet the extra-legal prison at Guantanamo by its very existence denies his statements." Jack, you forget that most of those responsible for the direct attack on the US are already in custody or dead. What Bush is doing (if I can indulge in a little fantasy here) is more in the lines of <a>"Hunting of the Snark"</a>. It ends thusly - <blockquote>"It's a Snark!" was the sound that first came to their ears, And seemed almost too good to be true. Then followed a torrent of laughter and cheers: Then the ominous words "It's a Boo-" Then, silence. Some fancied they heard in the air A weary and wandering sigh Then sounded like "-jum!" but the others declare It was only a breeze that went by. They hunted till darkness came on, but they found Not a button, or feather, or mark, By which they could tell that they stood on the ground Where the Baker had met with the Snark. In the midst of the word he was trying to say, In the midst of his laughter and glee, He had softly and suddenly vanished away--- For the Snark *was* a Boojum, you see. </blockquote> “President George W. Bush repeatedly says that he wants to “bring the terrorists to justice,??? yet the extra-legal prison at Guantanamo by its very existence denies his statements.”

Jack, you forget that most of those responsible for the direct attack on the US are already in custody or dead.

What Bush is doing (if I can indulge in a little fantasy here) is more in the lines of “Hunting of the Snark”.

It ends thusly -

“It’s a Snark!” was the sound that first came to their ears,
And seemed almost too good to be true.
Then followed a torrent of laughter and cheers:
Then the ominous words “It’s a Boo-”

Then, silence. Some fancied they heard in the air
A weary and wandering sigh
Then sounded like “-jum!” but the others declare
It was only a breeze that went by.

They hunted till darkness came on, but they found
Not a button, or feather, or mark,
By which they could tell that they stood on the ground
Where the Baker had met with the Snark.

In the midst of the word he was trying to say,
In the midst of his laughter and glee,
He had softly and suddenly vanished away—
For the Snark *was* a Boojum, you see.

]]> By: Jack Grant http://www.randomfate.net/MT/2006/04/04/a-war-of-definition-part-2-justice-or-vengeance/comment-page-1/#comment-8969 Jack Grant Wed, 05 Apr 2006 04:59:06 +0000 http://www.randomfate.net/MT/2006/04/04/a-war-of-definition-part-2-justice-or-vengeance/#comment-8969 Perhaps if some of the "alleged abuses" were practiced upon you or someone you cared about your tune would change. Think about it, and not strictly from your own limited viewpoint of "they must be bad guys because they are in prison." Perhaps if some of the “alleged abuses” were practiced upon you or someone you cared about your tune would change.

Think about it, and not strictly from your own limited viewpoint of “they must be bad guys because they are in prison.”

]]> By: olga http://www.randomfate.net/MT/2006/04/04/a-war-of-definition-part-2-justice-or-vengeance/comment-page-1/#comment-8968 olga Wed, 05 Apr 2006 04:44:44 +0000 http://www.randomfate.net/MT/2006/04/04/a-war-of-definition-part-2-justice-or-vengeance/#comment-8968 May be I am 'jaded' by the prisons and prisoners' treatment in the USSR and former Soviet Bloc, but the alleged abuses at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib are ridiculous. And coerse interrogation is NOT a torture. I think we need to clear our definitions. French police uses worse methods to deal with their criminals, never mind terrorists... May be I am ‘jaded’ by the prisons and prisoners’ treatment in the USSR and former Soviet Bloc, but the alleged abuses at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib are ridiculous. And coerse interrogation is NOT a torture. I think we need to clear our definitions. French police uses worse methods to deal with their criminals, never mind terrorists…

]]> By: ry http://www.randomfate.net/MT/2006/04/04/a-war-of-definition-part-2-justice-or-vengeance/comment-page-1/#comment-8965 ry Wed, 05 Apr 2006 02:01:37 +0000 http://www.randomfate.net/MT/2006/04/04/a-war-of-definition-part-2-justice-or-vengeance/#comment-8965 Just tossing this into the blender. Not trying to say much of anything. Just seeing how it mixes with everything. http://www.spacewar.com/reports/British_Defence_Secretary_Urges_Change_To_Rules_Of_War.html Just tossing this into the blender. Not trying to say much of anything. Just seeing how it mixes with everything.
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/British_Defence_Secretary_Urges_Change_To_Rules_Of_War.html

]]>