Apparently, opposing torture is an attribute of “the left”

John Cole at Balloon Juice posted a link to a satire in the Toronto Star referring to a modest proposal on resolving the CIA leak investigation despite obstruction of the investigation through the use of torture on Scooter Libby (if you have never read the original “A Modest Proposal: For Preventing the Children of Poor People in Ireland from Being a Burden to Their Parents or Country, and for Making Them Beneficial to the Public” by Jonathan Swift, and apparently more than a few commenting to Cole’s post have not, I highly recommend it).

One of Cole’s regular readers was not amused:

Why is John Cole selling out to the left?

I’m a long-time reader. Balloon Juice used to sit in the “Essential Blogs�? category in my blog links. I created a new category today: On Probation, to which I’ve relocated Balloon Juice.

You’ll be hearing from me on my relatively new blog in response to all your “Now be nice to those murdering terrorists, and be sure to read then their Miranda rights�? postings.

Cole responded later in the comments:

Oh Good Christ Almighty.

If I thought we were 100% sure we were torturing only people who had or who were going to attack the United States, I would probably willingly join in on the torture. Hell, I might even come up with a few new torture methods beyond anything yet described.

For instance, I might tie the terrorist to a seat and make him read every comment posted here on this website.

But since we don’t know who they are or what they are, I would like to note a couple things:

1.) Torture is not as effective as other methods of extracting information.

2.) Many of the people we are hearing should be subjected to torture have turned out to be innocent.

3.) The vast majority of the people we have captured to date are low levels who have no information worth giving.

4.) Allowing for a policy of torture directly increases the chances that our soldiers and agents will be tortured.

5.) Torture is frowned upon by the vast majority of our allies.

6.) Apparently we already have tortured a number of people, to no real advantage.

7.) The public of the United States (you know, the folks that determine the government) seems to be largely opposed to torture.

Putting aside all those reasons, and I am sure a number I have missed, let me just point out one other reason we shouldn’t torture.

IT’S FUCKING WRONG.

Regular readers here already are aware that I agree with Cole on this particular topic. What is interesting is the response of some to any statement that torture is morally wrong. Somehow, being against the use of torture by our government is immediately associated with “selling out to the left” and is calling for “mollycoddling” of those captured. See the above points made by Cole for how truly simple-minded that reaction truly is.

John Cole is right, torture is fucking wrong, and I am forced to question the humanity of those who are calling for it to be institutionalized within our government, which it will be if any law we pass has “exceptions” allowing it, regardless of the limitations imposed.

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The reality is torture is only effective in getting people to tell you what they think you want to hear not the truth. That’s the first thing they taught us when I went through the DIA interrogation class in the late 60’s. Since we are dealing with an administration that is only interested in what they want to hear is it any surprise they support torture.

Ron, in light of your comment on the interrogation class, here is something that might interest you. One of the last commenters at the post on Balloon Juice wrote:

SERE course… Three points.

First, I volunteered.

Second, I knew there was a definite scheduled end – hard as it was to remember.

Third, while we never had the pleasure of being beat with baseball bats while wrapped in a sleeping bag, nor do I recall anyone telling of being piled in a naked human pyramid, I do recall that the instructors told us that what we’d experienced WAS torture.

We went through torture lite to better prepare us to resist and cope with more severe torture in the event we encountered it. The instructors regularly condemned it in those classes – it was stuff done by evil nations, not us. We only prepared for it because the folk on the other side used it.

So pardon me while I think your statement using SERE as a defense of using torture is, at best, a steaming pile of manure.

I have never undergone any course like that, but the point that the instructors said that what was being done to them WAS torture is illustrative of what was once regarded as unacceptable behavior that apparently the current administration feels is acceptable.

A rumble on the right side of blog-world

John Cole of Balloon Juice, someone who leans to the right but thinks instead of mindlessly repeating talking points, is discovering that opposition to torture is

The defenders of torture are all the same. They completely abandon the concept of guilty until proven innocent when it comes to “The War on Terror”.

Once upon a time, the right castigated the left (not always accurately, but that’s another story) for having abandon the concept of national honor. How ironic that it is now many of those same people who appear to have no concept of honor. To them, expedience is all. Or perhaps, given that torture is demonstrably of no real value in gathering accurate information, perhaps their expedience is merely a facade for something even less honorable.

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